It seems my last post rattled a few cages - and at least one reader remains convinced that angels travel at the speed of light and this amazing fact is miraculously revealed in the Qur'an.
So to try to drive the point home (I was hoping not to have to do this because this bit is just plain embarrassing) let's look at the second half of
the claim (yes -we only did half of it!) and see if it becomes any easier for the miracle seekers to agree that it's all - for want of a euphemism - b*llocks... There is no maths or science in this part because....well because there isn't any maths or science in the claim to rebut in the first place (despite the impressively whizzing ballcock in the cartoon wormhole and phrases such as
time dilation and
neutron stars -oo-er!) It's all hocus-pocus and wild unsubstantiated nonsense which is essentially meaningless - so my carefully researched and impartial explanations (in
red for ease of identification) won't tax your brains too much.
Note to miracle seekers: this is just a bit of fun (since this deserves nothing more). A proper debunk of the one day - one thousand years speed of light claim (which seems to excite the bucailleists) to follow...
Inside gravitational fields: This time dilation shows angels crossing a wormhole (معراج) at a few meters/sec.
This is a picture of a wormhole. There was me thinking wormholes were tricky concepts to grasp, but your graphic has cleared it all up, fellas. There it goes - boing! Oooh!- there it goes again - boing! The Quran says that angels use these wormholes to reach any place in the universe. Where? WHERE? I just love the way you lot make these preposterous claims with (presumably) a straight face and an expectation that your poor gullible readers will be so impressed with your jargon that they'll just swallow it all... An observer outside gravitational fields sees (SEES? are you sure?) those angels passing by him at 99.99999...% of the speed of light (relativistic speeds, very close to the local speed of light), that is at 299792.457999...km/s. Spot the deliberate mistake? Fellas, these angels are travelling at the speed of light, remember? But when those angels enter the gravitational field of a wormhole this observer still sees (!!) those angels entering the wormhole at 99.99999...% of the speed of light however that would no longer be at 299792.457999...km/s. This is because in the presence of gravity the speed of light becomes relative. Ah - yes - relativity. I'm just amazed Einstein didn't "revert" as soon as he'd thought of his General Theory and was told of these verses in the Qur'an. If he sees the speed of light in a wormhole at 10 meters/sec, for example, then he would see those angels traveling at only 9.999999...meters/sec, flapping their wings in slow motion, reddish in color and very dim (and in turn they would see him in fast motion, bluish in color and very bright).Yup - I'm picturing it now. It's so much easier to believe now that I can see the angel "flapping his wings".And by the way, have you thought why an angel would need wings in a vacuum? A smaller time dilation (say 100 or 1000 years vs. one day) can also occur if we stand on Earth and angels stand on a neutron star (or resist their fall into a neutron star; gravitational time dilation). This just gets better and better - angels standing on neutron stars! The guy obviously thought, "No-one's going to read this far. I can basically just say what I want. Let's shove an angel on a neutron star. I bet I can get them to swallow that!" This makes their velocity relative to us to be zero (and not 299792.457999... km/s). But naturally occurring wormholes connect distant black holes; however at a lower time dilation (100 or 1000 years vs. one day) the two entrances of the wormhole cannot connect; hence a wormhole cannot form. Do try to keep up at the back - they'll be a test at the end. So with the time dilation stated in the Quran (50,000 years vs. 1 day) Oh! I love it. The sheer chutzpah of the seamless segue into "time dilation" and the fact that angels are moving then those angels have to be crossing a wormhole. Cuh! Obvious isn't it, when it's explained to you! The angels "have to be crossing a wormhole" because no other explanation makes sense! The pulsar scenario or any other combination cannot do. Damn! - and there I was, hoping to use the ol' "pulsar scenario"... Learn more (what...more??) Quran 32.5 is time vs distance; this gives us speed of angels which turned out to be the speed of light. However Quran 22.47 and Quran 70.4 are time vs time (no distance); this is time dilation. We know from Einstein that my clock and your clock will not run at the same rate. Time (or rate of our clocks) depend on acceleration and/or gravity. If my clock accelerates and/or is in a strong gravitational field then it will run slower than your clock. So time is relative. Quran 22.47 compares time of Earth with time at Paradise/Hell (1 day vs 1000 years). While Quran 70.4 compares time on Earth with time in wormholes (1 day vs 50,000 years).How could an illiterate man who lived 1400 years ago have figured out Time Dilation and the core of Relativity? How indeed! It'll just have to remain a mystery. Because this is the biggest load of cretinously inane, pompously soporific, unadulterated gibberish I have ever read.
And let's not forget the three simple phrases (which incidentally contradict each other and thus prove the Qur'an is of human origin) whence all this pseudo scientific guff originated:
And [so, O Muhammad,] they challenge thee to hasten the coming upon them of [God’s] chastisement: but God never fails to fulfill His promise - and, behold, in thy Sustainer’s sight a day is like a thousand years of your reckoning. 22:47
He governs all that exists, from the celestial space to the earth; and in the end all shall ascend unto Him [for judgment] on a Day the length whereof will be [like] a thousand years of your reckoning. 32:5
all the angels and all the inspiration [ever granted to man] ascend unto Him [daily,] in a day the length whereof is [like] fifty thousand years… 70:4
and which were (depending on your preference) plagiarised from/inspired by the Bible in any case!
For a thousand years in your sight are like a day that has just gone by, or like a watch in the night. Psalm 90:4
But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.2 Peter 3:8
Give me strength.
Isn't there a verse from the Qur'an that speaks o unbelievers as 'deaf, dumb and blind', never mind that we only ask for proof and none are forthcoming? I think it will be applicable for the Bucailleists!
ReplyDeleteWe believesss in Iluvatar, yesss Preciouss, and in Elveses, and Orces and Hobbitses, and in bright shiny Ringses! And if you don't, it's because you are all deaf, dumb and blind, Yess Preciousss!
ReplyDelete--The Prophet Gollum (PBUH), second of that name.
Brilliant - just brilliant!
Delete(Had Mrs Spinoza in stitches...)
Cretinism doesn't do it justice, Spinoza, it's either stupidity so abysmal that there's no word in any human language for it, or it is self-deception deeper than anything we can do. Such people are only to be pitied and humoured, let them labour in their delusions, we have better things to do.
ReplyDelete@wormhole199 (if you're still there), check this out:
ReplyDeleteBhagavad-Gita 8:17--
The knowers of true “day” and “night”
Know Brahma’s Day and Brahma’s Night
Are each a thousand yugas long–
And each one comes unto an end.
One thousand yugas–one “day” (or “night”) of Brahma–is 4,320,000,000 years long.
Brahma is a Hindu god who creates the universe. 24 hours for him is 4.32 billion+4.32 billion = 8.64 billion years.
Brahma's one year is 360 such days, and he lives 100 such years, and then dies, to be replaced by another Brahma born from the navel of the god Vishnu. Hindu belief is that the present time is the morning of the first day of his 51st year. (I'm not Hindu, I know this because I live in India.)
How could the ancient Hindus, who were primitive people, have such great ideas as the relativity of time?
This shows that other cultures also independently came up with such ideas, and so it is no miracle of the Qur'an or the Tanakh.
BTW, Brahma, a mortal being, thus beats Allah by billions of years.
Spinoza, do you know a word expressing disgust much stronger than b*llocks or ballcock or BS?
ReplyDeleteLast point: the 'Moslem belief' that angels are made of light is also not original to Muhammad!
ReplyDelete2 Corinthians 11:14--
And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
Satan is not of light but fire, Angels from light...
DeleteThat was brilliant Spinoza!
ReplyDeleteThis claim is the Islamic Jabberwocky! ...atleast, Muslims seems to have the same response that Alice had to the Jabberwocky;
"'It seems very pretty,' she said when she had finished it, 'but it's rather hard to understand!'"
This perhaps why Muslims have to find Humpty Dumpty to explain it all!
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteA lot of arrogance both in the main post and in the commments with Varma being so excited about it that he posted 8 times in 44 minutes! Man you seriously have to calm down.
ReplyDeleteThe other guy that was also over-excited is the one who wrote this article about those crazy ideas of wormholes in the quran etc. As a muslim convert myself, I learnt to filter out those excentric articles from 'miracle-seekers' as you say. But you should know that you can find everything everywhere. Why spend so much time 'refuting' this kind of article sentence by sentence with this mocking tone? Very few people make this kind of far-fetched claims and the reason for this is that most muslims don't see scientific miracles everywhere like the author of this excessive article.
Sometimes the quran says that one day for God is like 1000 years of our reckoning, sometimes it says it is like 50000 of our reckoning. Do you really believe those number are precise exact numbers? It is obvious to me, that the point of those verses is to remind mankind of its limitations and of the greatness of God who is limitless and all powerful. God is not
bounded in a 'timed framework'. God actually created everything including the notion of time.
There is then no contradiction between those verses.
Concerning the allegations that the Quran copied some verses from the Bible, think about it. What does Islam say? That God sent many messengers since the beginning of mankind's history to remind men of His message. It is then likely that some teachings of the Quran would be in circulation among many cultures. You know how men are, with time and generations after generations, they change little by little what they have and what is taught to them. Look at the bible. it was proven by historians that it went through a lot of alterations by men over time (that's why we have the Quran which is the ultimately protected revelation). So if you find a similar verse in the bible, why be so surprised? Muslims believe it was originally a revelation from God but men just altered it afterwards. Hence to a muslim it doesn't make sense to say some verses of the Quran were 'plagiarised from/ inspired by' the bible as we look at the bible as a divine scripture that was later corrupted.
Hi Hamza,
DeleteGlad you could pop in.
I'm also glad (if a little surprised) to see you dismissing the idea of Muslims seeing scientific miracles everywhere - since you and your acolytes at iERA are some of the worst proponents of this sort of stuff around! My friend used to quote your site as one of the main sources for his claims! (Along with Bucaille and the infamous 3rd edition of Clinical Embryology)
Your organisation spends large amounts of money (a proportion of which the government actually pays you because of your charitable status!) promoting these ideas as part of your dawah initiatives.
What about the idea that there are embryological facts contained in the Qur'an that it would have been impossible for a 7th century desert dweller to know? Are you dismissing that one now?
What about the idea that the Qur'an talks about isostasy? Do you no longer claim that one?
Or how about the expanding universe? Big Bang? Water cycle? Etc. Etc.
"most muslims don't see scientific miracles everywhere like the author of this excessive article." - agree, agree, agree
DeleteWalk into a mosque. Approach a member of the congregation. Ask them to tell you about scientific miracles in the Quran and you will most likely be met with a blank stare.
@Spinoza "What about the idea that...etc etc etc..." I think these "scholars" feel that they have to respond to questions - so if you ask them a question such as "can you please give your view on Islam in light of recent scientific discoveries regarding etc etc etc" - what you get in return is...well...an answer. Perhaps these people feel than AN answer is better than NO answer.
How wrong they are.
Also, in support of HamzaT's view - there is actually the Mohammed Asad translation of the Quran which has very useful introduction and foreword, discussing the meaning of such terms as references to time, references to Jinn's and other supernatural stuff are metaphorical rather than literal, and that if you read the Quran non-literally (which is actually how most of us communicate anyways) then it makes a great deal more sense
DeleteIf only those who are tricking so many people into "reverting" by spinning the duplicitous web of "miracles" thought as you do Jasmine, then I could close my blog with a happy heart. But while there are charlatans like Yusuf Estes and the crew at iERA screwing with my friend's (and other vulnerable people's) mind I'll keep on exposing the bastards for what they are.
DeleteThere will always be people taking advantage of vulnerable people - the solution, surely, is to strengthen the vulnerable(?)
DeleteFor some they are taken in by the likes of iERA, others are taken in by psychics, mediums and fortune tellers, others russian wives and Nigerian scammers, Turkish waiters... for others it's gambling, drugs - for others its payday loans or cowboy builders.
Hello Varma,
DeleteYou talk as if the Bible is unique to some ceratin people.
The Bible or Injeel was given to the Prophet Isa.
He was one of the prophets of Almighty.So it is very logical,the same ideas to be there.
@HamzaT,
ReplyDeleteI don't care much about whether the Qur'an has contradictions or not. I'm sure Islamic scholars can address such issues very well. I have only good will towards Muslims and Islam, but I don't really like it when people come and preach to me.
And yes, I think your interpretation of the verses in question is the right one. I myself do pray to God, and to claim that He (or She, as the case may be) experiences time is to bring the Creator of time to a creature's level.
However, for me neither the Bible nor the Qur'an nor the Vedas or any other book are divine scriptures, I see them all as human works. To a Muslim the claim that Qur'anic verses were plagiarized won't make sense, but to someone like me, who has no religion, that is the only one that makes sense. However, I do agree that this is subjective, I cannot DISPROVE that the Qur'an is from God. Ultimately it's a question of faith. I respect faith, whether it is the faith of the Muslim who turns towards Mecca in prayer or of the Hindu who turns to the rising sun and worships it. So peace and goodwill from me. :)
Regards,
Varma
Thanks for this honest reply Varma, I appreciate it.
DeletePersonally what convinced me to become Muslim was especially all the wisdom I found in its teachings. Also it was the only religion I found which could make sense to me.
Have you looked at Islam from the more philosophical point of view or only from the 'scientific miracles' side?
I have, but you can have good philosophy without religion too, you know. I'm basically not a very religious person. That is why I address only the claims of miraculous foreknowledge and not its philosophy.
DeleteWell strictly speaking, the Quran goes:
DeleteGod - Angel Gabriel - Mohammed - Writers (because he was illiterate and could only recite it, not read or write it) - Quran
So...lots of holes there really.
THEN, you get a few leaders who took over after Mohammed's death, some good - leading the kingdom to flourish and some bad, leading the opposite and somewhere along the way, many books, pages of the original copies start going extinct and everyone is ordered to commit it to memory.
Then, the leader at the time orders it to be written, at which stage they decide that it should no longer be chronological, but should be organized from longest chapter to shortest to assist with memorization.
Today - when you read the Quran, you are not really reading what Mohammed was reciting.
**
On a seperate note: faith and religion are two different things. Faith is something inside a person, religion is something that controls the behaviour of a person
I'm sorry Jasmine, but you are very wrong. I do agree about the post you've written with regards to Prophet Muhammad's (Pbuh) youngest wife, Aisha - indeed, she knew the Prophet intimately, which is why she was one of the only persons who would be approached when the new Muslims had questions/confusions about certain aspects of Islam. Aisha had an almost photographic memory and because she had known the Prophet intimately from such a young age, she'd been able to memorize almost everything he had taught and later became a teacher for so many others.
DeleteHowever, I don't agree with your point about the Quran not being in the same condition as it had been when Allah had given us the Quran through Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). YOU HAVE NO EVIDENCE. And that example provided by the author of this post is unreliable. He or she doesn't even know what they're talking about. The author simply picked some verse he/she saw fit for their purpose.
You really need to do some research before you go and make statements like that.
Fact: since the Quran had been sent upon us, Muslims all over the world - Chinese, German, African, Indian, Arab, ect. have memorized the Quran WORD BY WORD. There have been competitions, Universities, countless necklaces, home decor, ect, that have used verses of the Quran. We have, IN FACT, many old, old artifacts, old copies of the Quran and other evidence that the Quran we Muslims read nowadays is 100% the same as Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) had recited.
I really don't know where you got this misleading information, but one thing is for sure - the Quran is 100% authentic, whereas the Bible has been changed by Kings, popes and others whenever they felt appropriate to suit their own needs and to pursue their own goals. Why do you think there are so many different version of the Bible, BUT ONLY ONE VERSION OF THE QURAN (only one version that is recognized as authentic by EVERY SINGLE MUSLIM IN THE WORLD)?
You're the only person here who is not saying absolute nonsense.
DeleteHi Spinoza,
ReplyDeleteApologies that you mistook me from Hamza Tzortzis, I am not him, I will slightly change my nickname to HamzaTer in order to avoid confusion.
The miracles that you are quoting now are to me in a more reasonable category than the ones of this article.
For example about the fact that moutains are like pegs. You claim that it's in the bible. Well, the bible refers to the roots of the mountains in two verses.
But the quranic verses insist on the fact that the mountains are like pegs while the biblical verses only speak about the roots of the mountains as a simple element of a narrative.
Do you believe that the prophet had some rabbi or cleric friends who had a deep knowledge of the bible ( which was then not translated yet in arabic), that they would teach him everything and that he would pick the things he likes the most from it to make his religious book, and that by chance he would only pick the things which are not wrong?
I honestly don't believe in this scenario.
Whether the Qur'an has errors or not is not what I worry about much. A verse, whether Qur'anic or from the Tanakh or the New testament or in the Vedas, can be interpreted in so many ways. So what is an error to one may not be so to another. As for the mountains being having underground extensions, the idea is much older than the Bible, being in the Epic of Gilgamesh for instance:
Delete"Mashu the name of the hills; as he reach’d the Mountains of Mashu,
Where ev’ry day they keep watch o’er [the Sun-god's] rising [and setting],
Unto the Zenith of Heaven [uprear’d are] their summits, (and) downwards
(Deep) unto Hell reach their breasts:"
From: http://www.sacred-texts.com/ane/eog/eog11.htm
'He' is this passage refers to Gilgamesh. Some say that this may be the person who inspired the King Nimrod of Judaeo-Christian and Islamic legend.
I believe the prophet mohammed was a child molester, did he not marry a child and rape her when she was nine?
ReplyDeleteI think "child molester" is a relatively new way of seeing things (a view which - so that there is no doubt - I wholeheartedly agree with) - and before I am accused of not being concerned about this particular point: let me just say that I am.
DeleteMy shallow research has led me to learn that there have been times in history where girls were married much younger, the further back you go in time, the younger the girls get. Cleopatra, for example, was married to her brother when she was 11 years old (her brother was 10 at the time - so a bit different). Today we would call that incest. The virgin mary was (according to Jewish tradition) 13 years old when she gave birth to Jesus - betrothed at age 12.
My own grandmother's mother was married out of the village at 13 to a much older man - he was in his 40's - it was the norm, for this would guarantee a good life for the girl who would never be educated, never work and so on, my grandmother married at 17, my mother at 21 and me at 27...so even in recent years, we see a massive difference in traditional, historical, village tradition and more modern ways and perspectives.
It may be that Mohammeds young wife was an early developer and started ovulating very young and would have therefore had all of the necessarily "bits and pieces" that could qualify her as a marriageable woman.
To say he raped or molested her is incorrect - all historical accounts of their marriage, regularly show this particular wife (Aysha) to be his favorite and one that was exceptionally devoted to him, during his life and after his death also - she was the most Islamically active female figure after he died: she led a war, started a school and counseled people, and she is in fact the main voice of the hadith: her name comes up the most, mainly because she was such an active community figure and the primary teacher of the ways of Mohammed. She is also known for her lack of shyness, often speaking openly about intimate man and wife issues as well. Very confident lady indeed.
Frankly, I think most of the Ahadith literature is dubious, but that's just my opinion.
ReplyDeleteWhat is remarkable with the Hadith literature is that it has been collected in an unprecedentedly rigorous and methodological way, the exceptional feature being the Isna, the chain of the narrators, which allow us to know which narrations to trust and which ones to reject, hence I wouldn't call it 'dubious'.
ReplyDeleteI haven't heard of any other thing like that in history yet. If you have, I would be interested to know.
Well, if the Ahadith are true, then I have no reason to believe in Islam. There were many thousands of Ahadith which were rejected by the collectors. In fact, I'm sure you can manufacture an Isnad. And there are similar things in other cultures: oral tradition. The Ahadith are oral traditions written down 2 centuries after Muhammad. And if they can be believed, then the oral traditions of many primitive cultures can also be believed. They have Isna too: from father to son, from mother to daughter they are transmitted. Even today there are people who reject some Ahadith because they clash with their interpretation of the faith. Then there are people who reject all the Ahadith (the Qur'anists/the Ahl-al-Qur'an).
ReplyDeleteDo not put too much hope on Greek texts as word of God. Where is Logia of Jesus in Aramaic. Where is Matthew’s Aramaic gospel?
ReplyDeleteP46 (175CE) is Greek manuscript with the largest percentage of difference on record. This just proved that Church have been changing words since early 2nd century at will.
Here is the words of the early church father, Origen (3rd century CE):
“The differences among the manuscripts have become great, either through the negligence of some copyists or through the perverse audacity of others; they either neglect to check over what they have transcribed, or, in the process of checking, they make additions or deletions as they please.” Origen, early church father in “Commentary on Matthew.”
Regarding the oldest surviving fragment, Colin Roberts compared P52 writings using ONLY 5 samples from the early 2nd century CE back in 1935 and concluded based on those 5 samples; P52 was from the early 2nd century.
(Brent Nongbri’s 2005. The Use and Abuse of P52: Papyrological Pitfalls in the Dating of the Fourth Gospel)
What I have done is to show that any serious consideration of the window of possible dates for P52 must include dates in the later second and early third centuries. – Brent
Compare with 4th century codexes. You will be surprise how Holy Spirit inside the scribes fail to prevent them from changing words of God ever since the beginning.
The last bit, which talks about three verses that supposedly "contradict each other" shows that you clearly have no idea what you're talking about. They don't contradict each other because the first two verse mention the day of RECKONING. It is stated TWICE at the end of both verses. THAT MEANS THAT THEY TALK ABOUT THE SAME DAY, whereas in the third one, there is no mention of the day of reckoning! It talks about something completely different!
ReplyDeleteIn the Quran, there are many metaphors and similes, as you probably have noticed for your deep research. The purpose of those is for the reader to use his/her brain - instead of having information conveniently fed to your brain. Allah wants the readers to be actively thinking while reading the verse he has sent to humanity.
SIMILE: a figure of speech involving the comparison of one thing with another thing of a different kind, used to make a description more emphatic or vivid.
METAPHOR: "a figure of speech containing an implied comparison, in which a word or phrase ordinarily and primarily used of one thing is applied to another
So, now that you hopefully know that the Quran contains about 70%, 30% reflection, filled with similes and metaphors, you'd think a bit harder before making such a false allegation about a book that could not have been written by a human being.
Also, the ORIGINAL BIBLE, meaning the original version sent to us via Jesus (who is not God, by the way - he's God's MESSENGER), corresponds perfectly to the Quran - why? BECAUSE THEY ARE THE WORDS FROM THE SAME GOD! OF COURSE THEY ARE GOING TO BE SIMILARITIES. Prophet Muhammad, Peace by upon him, and Prophet Jesus, Peace be upon him, are both Allah's/Ellah's messengers. They were send by the same God, with the same message to humanity, along with all other messengers, from Adam to Moses, to Abraham, Jacob, John, Zacharia, Isaaq and the list goes on.
Don't ask for strength. Ask for some intellect instead. No offense.
May Allah guide us all.
ReplyDelete@Anonymous - Thank you for your comments. May Allah reward you for speaking the truth and for clearly replying to misunderstanding or false statements made in some other comments.
ReplyDeleteI read the whole article and the impression which I received is either he talked to someone who told him that Quran is scientific theory book.
ReplyDeleteThe purpose of the Quran is to guide human beings and advise them that how can they manage their matters in best possible way. You cannot evaluate the book of law on the rules laid by science. And every day around the world science is defeated by nature number of times. Science is so helpless that cannot explain the difference between the chris angel and other humans lols. Quran is revealed in the time when the science was not so advance so lets suppose if it has to say the word wormholes then people would ask what is this then you have to explain ok this and this and then they would say what is this .. so in other words you are also expecting full.fledged mathematical equations along with proper theory to see the scientific miracle... lols...... thats for you.
Are their scientific miracles in Quran. Quran explains about origination life cycle because thats one of the basic for humans just like every mobile phone user doesnt have to see in which language andriod is programmed but the thing which they know its andriod. Quran mention established facts because it is the book in which every one has share. People of.logic, law, socialist jurist and people of science. Quran mention these facts as an abstract of abstract. So in one line quran says earth and heavens are one thing we parted them away and we kept it expanding. That is an extract of extract. People of every time understand it well. And the people of science can go deeper and they come to conclusion of blackhole. Quran could have said we made the world and then made sky and then this this... but it didnt and today it is proved. Quran says earth is sphere the word is dahaha its meaning is spreading and ostrich egg which is a sphere so there are signs for the people of every field. Earth spread out okay and earth is ostrich egg ok. Now you come up sphere types so its you who needs correction not Quran. And Allah knows best of all he is the forgiver of every mistakes intentionally and accidentally with good intentions.