Saturday, August 25, 2012

Noah's Ark- is the Qur'an more believable than the Bible?


Many Muslims, including such dubious luminaries as Maurice Bucaille and Zakir Naik, claim that the story of Noah and the Flood as related in the Qur'an does not contradict common sense or archaeological evidence as does the Flood story in the Bible. The main reason for this it seems is that the Flood as described in the Qur'an was not the global catastrophe that all Christians have been brought up to believe, but a much more credible LOCAL affair. They thus dismiss the Biblical flood narrative as childishly naive, scoffing (see later for more on "scoffing") at the idea of Noah having to load his Ark with every animal and of a world-wide inundation.

Here is an excerpt from Zakir Naik's book on the subject:
The Biblical description of the flood in Genesis chapter 6, 7 and 8 indicates that the deluge was universal and it destroyed every living thing on earth, except those present with Noah (pbuh) in the ark. The description suggests that the event took place 1656 years after the creation of Adam (pbuh) or 292 years before the birth of Abraham, at a time when Noah (pbuh) was 600 years old. Thus the flood may have occurred in the 21st or 22nd Century B.C.This story of the flood, as given in the Bible, contradicts scientific evidence from archaelogical sources which indicate that the eleventh dynasty in Egypt and the third dynasty in Babylonia were in existence without any break in civilisation and in a manner totally unaffected by any major calamity which may have occurred in the 21st century B.C. This contradicts the Biblical story that the whole world had been immersed in the flood water. In contrast to this, the Qur’anic presentation of the story of Noah and the flood does not conflict with scientific evidence or archaeological data; firstly, the Qur’an does not indicate any specific date or year of the occurance of that event, and secondly, according to the Qur’an the flood was not a universal phenomenon which destroyed complete life on earth. In fact the Qur’an specifically mentions that the flood was a localised event only involving the people of Noah.It is illogical to assume that Prophet Muhummad (pbuh) had borrowed the story of the flood from the Bible and corrected the mistakes before mentioning it in the Qur’an. 
This all seems very credible until we read the Qur'anic version more closely. For if experience has taught us anything, it's to take with a giant ladle of salt anything Muslim miracle seekers tell us.

So what about 71:26-27 which plainly states that NO-ONE, NOT A SINGLE PERSON will be left alive on Earth?
71:26 And Noah, said: "O my Lord! Leave not of the Unbelievers, a single one on earth!
71:27 "For, if Thou dost leave (any of) them, they will but mislead Thy devotees, and they will breed none but wicked ungrateful ones.
That doesn't sound like a LOCAL flood to me.

Or how about 11:40-42 which says that the waters gushed over the face of the Earth and talks of the waves being the size of mountains and requires Noah's Ark to act as a depository for breeding pairs of EACH animal? LOCAL flood? Hmm...
11:40  [And so it went on] till, when Our judgment came to pass, and waters gushed forth in torrents over the face of the earth, We said [unto noah]: "Place on board of this [ark] one pair of each [kind of animal] of either sex,  as well as thy family -except those on whom [Our] sentence has already been passed  -and all [others] who have attained to faith!"-for, only a few [of noah's people] shared his faith.
11:42  And it moved on with them into waves that were like mountains. At that [moment] noah cried out to a son of his, who had kept himself aloof [from the others]: "O my dear son!  Embark with us, and remain not with those who deny the truth!" 

So, just to re-cap: we have
1. Noah asking God to drown ALL the non-believers so that NOT A SINGLE ONE is left on Earth so they can't breed again (a pretty big ask for a LOCAL flood!).
2. We also see Noah being told (just like in the Bible) to load breeding pairs of ALL animals onto the ark (to what purpose if this is a local flood? Wouldn't it be easier simply to restock from an area unaffected by the LOCAL flood? You'd also avoid the inherent risk of having future animal stock forever cursed with genetic problems from the inbreeding necessarily required when you restock from just one breeding pair.)
3. And we have waves the SIZE OF MOUNTAINS.
4. And we have the waters covering the FACE OF THE EARTH.

And we're asked to believe that this story is MORE believable than the errant nonsense in the Bible?

Come on Muslims! Challenge the patronising jerks who feed you this nonsense! Ask your immams to explain.

And if they can't, then ask yourself why. Why might a supposed holy book contain a story so full of holes an intelligent six year-old can see the logical flaws- "Er, Daddy - how big did you say the ark was? And Noah had ALL the animals in his boat....? For HOW long...?"

I'm not for one moment suggesting that a disastrous flood (or two) didn't happen at some stage in our pre-history. Why should there otherwise be so many FLOOD MYTHS. Look at the Gilgamesh flood story, for example. In fact it might be enlightening for any reader who believes the story of Noah to be original and hence divine to google it right now. Go on - I dare you! You'll find disturbing echos of the Biblical/Qur'anic story right down to birds being sent out to test if the waters had receded.

Note: i. Since the Flood and the building of the Ark, we are apparently supposed to regard all ships and boats as signs from God. Did you know that?
54:15  And, indeed, We have caused such [floating vessels] to remain forever a sign [of Our grace unto man]:  who, then, is willing to take it to heart? 
         ii. It's interesting to see how much "scoffing" went on at the time. Look at this, for example:
11:38 And  set himself to building the ark; and every time the great ones of his people passed by him, they scoffed at him. He said: "If you are scoffing at us-behold, we are scoffing at you , just as you are scoffing at us. 
and then remember how the style of the Qur'an is supposed to be utterly inimitable and perfect. So perfect and inimitable, in fact, that no-one can write a verse like it. Hmm.... (Sorry - doing a bit of scoffing here myself, I've just realised.)



76 comments:

  1. So, according to the records available, Noah's Ark set sail or, if the images are to be believed, floated directionlessly away - over 2,200 years ago. It was made of wood (allegedly) and yet so-called scholars are looking for it today! Would wooden timbers still be recognisable over 2000 years later? The whole idea of the Ark is stupid. If it's for real then we have God (and Noah) to blame for mosquitoes, wasps, sharks and those little bloody snails which destroy my plants! Some bloody God that is! Also, if Islam is only 1600 or so years old, what right has it to comment on something which, allegedly, happened 1600 years previously? Perhaps they have the power of time travel, but then if they had, they would surely have prevented pigs making their way onto the ark on the principle that the most damage they could do to Islam's enemies is to prevent them having bacon sandwiches! This would surely be the ultimate outrage by the bastards!
    Penseivat

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    1. You're kinda dumb

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    2. noah calls for all the disbelievers on earth to be washed away..no mention if god did so according to quran..bible says he did we now know bible was in error no world flood according to modern science quran 1 bible0

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    3. It seems you don't have a good grasp of reasoning. Nope, sorry to say this but nice out of context try. When God drowned all the Unbelievers he drowned only the unbelievers of Noah. When Noah cried out to kill all the Unbelievers he was referring to the disbelievers from his nation. The reply throughout the rest of the Quran by God himself (not Noah) only mentions the People of Noah getting drowned if you read in context (Quran 7:64,72). Another problem is the logic you are using, because you assume right away other nations disbelieve in God the way Noah's people did. Unlike the Bible the Quran does not punish the innocent for something they are ignorant of (original sin). Do I need to explain this one?
      "One pair of each [kind of animal] of either sex,"
      What do those brackets mean? It does not really mention all species of animals or plants in world. A painful example of those who don't really care for context or literal translation. kinda like how the Christians still sing 'virgin' Mary but the actual translation is not virgin. Flood needed to cover the mountains to drown those who were running away. You can experience a typhoon that covers all of Indonesia without it affecting anyone in the States. If the people of Lot felt the "Earth" shake when they were destroyed by an earthquake, does not mean the whole Earth had an Earthquake or that everyone on Earth was killed. Only the Unbelievers of that nation were killed. As for the covering the "face of the Earth" I used a facial wash this morning. Just cause I placed it across my face doesn't mean I necessarily placed it all over my face, like on my eyelids or directly underneath them does it? One of the comments below from a hadith? Muslims are not obligated to believe in every hadith they read, since we don't consider it the word of God nor divinely revealed knowledge (reason why its kept separate from the Quran in the first place).

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    4. Thank you, as I was this letter, I was asking myself if he realized that the parts he was discussing consistently made reference to "Noah's people". Also, he should have kept in mind that this was not taking place im the 20th or 21st century AD. There were no planes or cars and for the most part, where people were born, they died. This was all of Earth known to them. So when Nuh (AS) expresses his anger at the disbelievers, he would ask God referring to his misguided people as the "unbelievers". This is only strengthened by Islamic belief because anyone with a background in Islam knows that the only prophet that was sent to all of mankind as a whole was Prophet Muhammad. So if all of the disbeliever's among Nuh (AS) were killed as stated, that certainly does not mean that all of mankind was killed.

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    5. Koran and bible are equally stupid. 'Covering the highest mountain tops' is clearly GLOBAL. Are muslims saying that because the story refers to Nuh's people who dod not know the extent of the Earth, then allah was also unaware??

      Guess so because Islam demands ignorance...

      005.101 O ye who believe! Ask not questions about things which, if made plain to you, may cause you trouble. But if ye ask about things when the Qur’an is being revealed, they will be made plain to you, Allah will forgive those: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Forbearing.

      If Muslims do ask too many questions, the Koran states that they have lost their faith.

      005.102 Some people before you did ask such questions, and on that account lost their faith.

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    6. Hey my name is Meshaal Ahmad Kawathar I am from saudi arabia.
      i just want to say that the word (Earth) in Arabic also means (land)
      So when noah said Earth he meant land and his land not the entire earth.
      Thank you very much

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    7. It would mean the same thing. Humans don't live in the ocean, we all live on land. So if you say "Kill all the disbelievers on the land" You'd be killing all the disbelievers.

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  2. It is funny that Naik would mock Christians for believing in a global flood while many Muslims also believe the same. Furthermore, this was also what all the Early Muslims believed and there is no mention of any "local flood"

    Here is an excerpt from al-Tabari's first volume "From the Creation to the Flood" (a book I highly recommend that you get)

    The history of al-Tabari. Volume 1. General Introduction and From the Creation to the Flood. Translated by Franz Rosenthal. State University of New York Press. 1989. page 362-363

    "According to al-Harith- Ibn Sa'd- Hisham- his father- Abu Salih- Ibn Abbas: God sent rain for forty days and forty nights. When the rain hit them, the wild animals, the [domestic] animals, and the birds all went to Noah and were subjected [to labor] for him. As commanded by God, he carried along "pair(s), two of kind" (Qur. 11:40). He also carried along Adam's corpse, making it a barrier between the women and me. They boarded the ark on the tenth of Rajab, and they left it on the Ashura Day, (the tenth day) of al-Muharram; therefore, all those people fast on teh Ashura day. The water was brought forth in two equal parts. THis is meant by God's word: "And We opened the gaates of heacen for water munhamirin"-that is, munassabbin pourin- "and We fajjarna" - that is, shaqqaqna split-" the earth for springs(to gush forth). The water (from above and below) met for a matter predetermined (Qur. 54:11). Thus, (because of the word "meeting: that is used in the verse, it appears that) the water came in to two equal parts, one from heaven, and the other from the earth. IT ROSE FIFTEEN CUBITS ABOVE THE HIGHEST MOUNTAINS ON EARTH. THE ARK CARRIED THEM AROUND THE ENTIRE EARTH IN SIX MONTHS. It did not come to rest anywhere until it came to the Sacred Territory 9of Mecca and Medina). However, it did not enter the Sacred Territory but circled around for a week. The House built by Adam was lifted up- lifted up, so as not be submerged ... after six months - "a curse upon the wrongdoers! (Qur. 11:44). When it had come to rest upon al-Judi, "it was said: Earth, swallow your water!" - meaning absorb your water that came forth from you- "and Heaven, hold back!" - and meaning, restrain your water - "and the water disappeared in the ground" - that is, the earth absorbed it. The water that had come down from Heaven became the oceans that are seen on earth today."

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    1. Hi Captain D,
      Thanks for that. I was thinking of appending something along these lines but remembered that Muslim scholars accept only those bits of al-Tabari that suit their purposes. Hence I suspect that this section would now be dismissed as either fake or unreliable.
      It would be interesting to see how many Muslims follow the "local" interpretation and how many follow the traditional "global" one. (And how many think the whole thing is a load of old codswallop...)

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    2. I was brought up in an Indian Muslim household. We were all told about the Global flood. The first time I heard about the "local flood" (for which Muslims have NO evidence) was from a youtube clip of Zakir Naik! (I am guessing he took it from Maurice Bucaille)

      Also Ibn Kathir says the following, "(So it sailed with them amidst waves like mountains,) This means that the ship sailed with them upon the surface of the water, which had completely covered the earth until it encompassed the tops of the mountains and even rose over them by a height of fifteen cubits. It was also said that the waves rose over the mountains by a height of eighty miles. "

      I really doubt Muslims can provide any shred of evidence for the claim that the Quran refers to "a local flood".

      Regarding al-Tabari, Muslims don't even seem to care that they are being intellectually dishonest by cherry picking with no objectivity. The way I go about it is asking Muslims to provide evidence that the early Muslims also agreed with their novel re-interpretations. If not, then I have no reason to believe the conspiratorial view that Muslims for 1400 years did not know the meaning of the book they were all obsessed with and had to wait for a skinny Indian apologist to finally reveal the truth!

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    3. See Quran verses 7:59-64: We sent Noah to his people, saying, "O my people, worship God; you have no other god beside Him. I fear for you the retribution of an awesome day." The leaders among his people said, "We see that you are far astray." "I deliver to you the messages of my Lord, and I advise you, and I know from God what you do not know. "Is it too much of a wonder that a reminder should come to you from your Lord, through a man like you, to warn you, and to lead you to righteousness, that you may attain mercy?" They rejected him. Consequently, we saved him and those with him in the ark, and we drowned those who rejected our revelations; they were blind.

      Sounds very local to me, and only talking about Noah's community of people

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    4. Az Akh:
      Question to Muslims:
      Show us from Quran that there existed other nations too during the time of Noah.
      According to Sahih (authentic) tradition of "Ibn Habban", there was only 1000 years between Adam and Noah (See Saudi Official Mufti website: http://islamqa.info/en/20907 )

      So how come Muslims claim that there were other communities too during the time of Noah?

      The sole argument of local Strom from Muslims is this that there were other communities too in the world at time of Noah and Allah does not punish the innocent ones.
      But they are unable to prove the existence of any such other community during time of Noah.

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    5. dont be daft and use some common sense fella. A guy further up nthis blog just pointed out some very sane facts , The only universal messenger in islam was the final messenger Muhammud pbuh ALL other messengers previous to him came for their own people only.So Noah pbuh could only speak for his own people to whom he had been assigned. The terminology is the terminology of the time.As far as waaves like monntains , do you have geographical knowledge about the actual terrain and wether the said terrain was below sea level or in a depression. You dont .This is why the Quran refrains from giving too much detail as the quran would be in so many volumes that no one would have time to read it in its entirety. Thus these are parables for lessons to be learnt. Local flood makes perfect sense and the kind of animals or birds would be by virtue of reason , domestic animals for transport and livestock and poultry as future food sources for the survivors to re establish their tribe .You dont have to be a rocket scientist to work that out . This is what happens when one does not stop to ponder or reflect but instead let the ego take over . That boils down to arrogance and little knowledge becoming dangerous . If you approach the quran with such a mindset , not only will you remain emptyhanded but you will further mislead yourself and it will be your own fault . The Quran is a book of wisdom which constantly invites the reader to reflect and ponder . It does not shy away from inspection . You are fully aware that the original gospel revealed to Jesus pbuh dissapeared from history with the unitarians . Nobody knows who the four writers of the current gospels are and where they got al their information and how there came to be four versions of the bible . Therefore much discrepancy has arisen in the data . However the spiritual teachings which is the primary thrust of all scriptures remain as a source of guidance towards good character and morals . Splitting hairs about some historical or scientific facts is not the aim of scriptural teachings . The quran claims for itself a book without corruption or contradiction and protected in its original text . It invites scrutiny and declares itself to be a book without contradiction affirming its message as being the same as previous scriptures It is now in its 1438th year and nobody from the best of scholars has been able to find contradictions or disprove its scientific indicators. In fact scientists are amazed at its accuracy of facts . You go ahead and find out for yourself . Approach the book with a clear unbiased mind and in a true scholarly fashion . Knowledge for knowledge sake . Leave the prejudices aside

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  3. Though not directly related to your piece here, there is a contradiction in the Npah story as related in different places in the Qur'an.

    Verses 11:42-43 Noah cried unto his son and he was standing aloof - O my son! Come ride with us, and be not with the disbelievers. He said: I shall betake me to some mountain that will save me from the water. Noah said: This day there is none that saveth from the commandment of Allah save him on whom He hath had mercy. And the wave came in between them, so he was among the drowned.

    This tell us that one of Noah's sons did not believe and was not willing to get onto the ark, but preferred to go to a high mountain and was subsequently drowned.

    However Verse 21:76 informs us that Noah's household which would obviously include his family were saved from the affliction:

    21:76 And Noah, when he cried of old, We heard his prayer and saved him and his household from the great affliction.

    This is also repeated again:

    37:76-77 And We saved him (Noah) and his household from the great distress, And made his seed the survivors.

    This clearly states his seed, which would be his children, were made the survivors which contradicts the little narrative he would have given at a different time in chapter 11.

    Azim

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    1. Let's face it, which ever version we choose to believe we are all related, and so if we kill someone, we are killing our family. That is all that matters, not who is right and who is wrong.

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    2. Yes, one of his sons died in the flood, but he is not considered his son in Allah's eye. The following verses talk about what Noah said after his son was drowned:
      11:45 And Noah cried unto his Lord and said: My Lord! Lo! my son is of my household! Surely Thy promise is the truth and Thou are the Most Just of Judges.
      11:46 He said: O Noah! Lo! he is not of thy household; lo! he is of evil conduct, so ask not of Me that whereof thou hast no knowledge. I admonish thee lest thou be among the ignorant.
      11:47 He said: My Lord! Lo! in Thee do I seek refuge (from the sin) that I should ask of Thee that whereof I have no knowledge. Unless Thou forgive me and have mercy on me I shall be among the lost

      I believe this should clear your misconception on this matter

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    3. Yes, the surviving seed of Noah's nation. I don't see how that supports the global flood theory or that Noah's seed became the only offspring on the Earth.

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  4. I Don't think any of you have any knowledge on both religions is better to leave to scholars of both religions, all of you here probably don't even read Bible Or Quran for that matter.

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  5. Thanks for your comment, Anon.
    Why do you assume neither I nor the commentors above have not read the Qur'an or the Bible?
    I can assure you I have read both books many times - in fact I have read the Qur'an in many translations.
    Your suggestion that we should leave it to "scholars" is interesting. Such "scholars" of Islam are without exception believers in the inerrancy of the book they are reading. How do you think they are objective in their analysis then?

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    1. Read and compare , clean your thinking, get better at math, history. then you will find out clearly what Quran is, and what bible was in past.

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    2. It's very obvious from a lot of comments that people aren't reading everything. they read until they find something that supports their assumption then stop. the author of the above article already had his mind made up before he started "analyzing the Quran"
      everyone here is going on faith which should be fine. weather your faith is in the Quran or the bible or the scientists who say there is no evidence of a great flood. scientists are wrong more times then they are right but people have blind faith in them too ( scientists say something didn't happen 1600 years ago so it must be true"

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  6. I was raised in Yemen, and the highest mountain in the middle east is just West of the capital sanaa. The name of this Mt is (sorry on my spelling) jabel nebi shwieb (Mt of the prophet shwieb). The story I was always told was that when Noah was warned of the flood one of his sons did not believe, but as a precaution moved his family to the peak of this Mt at just over 13000 ft. They did not survive from my understanding, but he is still refered to as nebi, which I have always understood as prophet. Why would he be refered to as this if he did not believe? Also if water were to cover such an altitude, it would also have to cover most of earth (just fill a bathtub and watch it, if there is somewhere lower the water must fill that area first, one of the properties of fluid and gravity). I am not bashing anyones beliefs, just sharing some info.

    As for anon above, if the people who posted above had never read the bible or Quran before, we must be observing a miracle for how else would they know those words? I have been going threw some internal conflicts as of late and look up any verse that is claimed so to not be led astray by a fool, and so far have not spotted any major discrepancies on this site. As for leaving it to the scholars, I prefer not to be a blind man following the blind. God gave us all minds to think, eyes to see and read, and ears to hear. Without using all of these it is easy to believe anything.

    I notice in many blogs people talking about translations of words. First I was wondering what background in Arabic we all have (mine is mainly in conversational). Second, it has always been confusing to me that a religion would be given in one language, one would think it would be presented to man in a form that no matter what language it was seen or read in that its truths would be equally evedent.

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    1. There are plenty of civilizations underwater right now. The mountains under the water are a lot taller (from base to peak) than any mountains you see above sea level. So can entire mountains be covered with water without the whole world being flooded? Yes it can, and clearly did. The Quran was certainly written in Arabic, but it affirms that all nations received Messengers and/or Prophets. All were told to worship One God, then latter these nations ascribed partners to God.

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    2. I agree, I have seen a documentary that says Somalia and Yemen were connected. there was no sea between them.
      all of Yemen was on high elevated land and it is at sea level

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  7. all i can say that there were 30 million species of animals at that time so its impossible for them to load in the ark some were in even different continents etc than the sheer size of the ark is also questionable and dont forget the time limit so Quran is correct that it was regional not global and coming back to noah asking god it was the non beleivers in his community not the entire planet another point that we all agree that it only rain for 40 days and nights the water will not be enough to submerge mount everest etc in conclusion it was all regional.

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    1. I love the logic, Anon...the traditional Ark story is an evident impossibility THEREFORE it MUST be a local flood for it is inconceivable that the Qur'an is mistaken.

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    2. Would even be impossible in the local area as two of every living creature, plus food and water, plus the humans, plus anything else they needed for when they built their area again. Can you imagine the poop. And no it isn't just pigs that eat other animals poop, most animals do this.
      On the water rising to cover the earth, the mountains may not have existed back then. How old is Everest? The world had not been explored back then so as far as Noah was concerned he knew of only the people near him. If the flooed did not include the whole world, why did the Almighty let all the dangerous creatures survive, why did they not make all creatures placid, why did they at that time make man placid and not capable of murder? Why are we still wallowing in hatred of other religions, non-believers, other cultures etc?
      The whole theory of religion just contradicts itself over and over again and with science and knowledge that we have acquired today it sounds more and more like a fairytale handed down through the ages.

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    3. Most of your questions would have been answered if you only read the Quran. The Quran mentions that God is All-Powerful, if God had so willed it, all nations would be one nation or all nations would have believed, etc. The reason we don't all believe is because God has given us intellect to choose. Life is a test to see which of us is the best in deeds. If life was easy without burden and no one died, I would assume that is heaven. Dangerous creatures? I think the most dangerous creatures on Earth would humans. If God really wanted the Earth to survive, it could do so better without us. Lol, the Quran also mentions the how disbelievers use the word 'fairytale' to describe the stories their parents told them and why they disbelieve in God, and the Day of Resurrection. They only believe when it is too late. Science does not disprove or prove God's existence, it only believes it what it can see. The Quran talks about "invisible" barriers in water. Just because we could not see this barrier 1400 years ago, does not mean a barrier does not exist and is just a fairy tale, it simply means we are unable to see it with our own senses.

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  8. Referring to Quran 71 26-27 Noah also said, "My Lord, do not leave a single disbeliever on earth. "For if you let them, they will only mislead your servants and give birth to nothing but wicked disbelievers.
    It does not mean all disbelievers will be wiped out from the flood, it is a general request from Noah to God (as there were a lot disbelievers/idol worshipers at the time)and didn't mean it actually happened, as God only knows. Noah was a messenger of God and verses 71 26-27 are not necessarily talking about the flood itself but general dialogue with Noah and for God to forgive him.

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    1. Just because you disbelieve (either version) does not make a person evil. Being a good person, who is good in the heart is far better than some one who kills in the name of their religion (radicals), but says they believe in the Almighty. I am neither here not there on my belief as too many people hate each other in the name of their religion and that is totally wrong.

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  9. According to Quran verses 71:25-26 Noah also said, "My Lord, do not leave a single disbeliever on earth. "For if you let them, they will only mislead your servants and give birth to nothing but wicked disbelievers.
    It does not mean that all disbelievers were erased from earth from the flood, it may of been a general request(as there were many disbelievers/idol worshipers at the time) from Noah to God and which does not mean that it actually happened as only God knows.
    Noah's main duty was a messenger of God and verses 71 25-26 is not necessarily talking about the flood but general dialogue with Noah and asking forgiveness from God.

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  10. Type"best evidence of noahs ark mt ararat"
    into youtube...

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  11. Face of the earth does not mean the whole earth

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    1. The earth was 'flat' back then so it would mean the whole of the earth as that is what 'face of the earth' would have been.
      Seriously though, I think people should just respect human life and not go around killing each other in the name of their religion and Almighty.

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  12. Let's face it people, it doesn't matter which version is right and which version is wrong, we are all related, which means if we kill someone, even in the name of the Almighty then we are killing a family member. Let's just live in peace and be good people that respect each other. As the doctors say 'First do no harm'

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  13. Noah’s Flood Was a Local Disaster:

    Your Lord would never destroy any cities without first sending to their chief a Messenger to recite Our Signs to them. We would never destroy any cities unless their inhabitants were wrongdoers. (Surat al-Qasas, 59)

    hzNuh3As noted in the Qur’an, Almighty Allah says that no people will be destroyed without a Messenger first being sent to it. Since the Prophet Noah (as) was sent, not to the whole world but solely to the society he lived in, Noah’s Flood was a local disaster. Mr. Oktar elucidated on this in a live interview on Kral Karadeniz TV

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    1. Did you actually read any of this before posting your comment?

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    2. Why is everyone interpreting the Quran wasn't it supposed to be the Complete and final revelation. If we have to depend on Modern day scholars like Mr.Oktar to come on t.v and tell us what it meant then why is this considered God's revelation.

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  14. nothing is imposible god can do anything stop taking us from our religion!!!!!!!!!!

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    1. I am simply asking you to think for yourself and not believe the illogical nonsense that your immams would have you believe.

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    2. I am simply asking you to think for yourself and not believe the illogical nonsense that your parents would have you believe about creating yourself.

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  15. Dr. Zakir Naik is neither an authority on Islam nor a great scholar. You have quoted the Quran verses:- 71:26 And Noah, said: "O my Lord! Leave not of the Unbelievers, a single one on earth!
    71:27 "For, if Thou dost leave (any of) them, they will but mislead Thy devotees, and they will breed none but wicked ungrateful ones.

    The Quran verses does not indicate that the flood was only local. The comment of Dr. Zakir Naik that the flood was local is his opinion only. The following Quran verses points that Noah had other sons. Please note the words "to a son of his" in verse 11:42.

    11:40 [And so it went on] till, when Our judgment came to pass, and waters gushed forth in torrents over the face of the earth, We said [unto Noah]:

    "Place on board of this [ark] one pair of each [kind of animal] of either sex, as well as thy family -except those on whom [Our] sentence has already been passed -and all [others] who have attained to faith!"-for, only a few [of Noah's people] shared his faith.
    11:42 And it moved on with them into waves that were like mountains. At that [moment] Noah cried out to a son of his, who had kept himself aloof [from the others]: "O my dear son! Embark with us, and remain not with those who deny the truth!"

    There is no contradiction in Quran.

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    1. I grant that if you take the verses in the Qur'an to mean the flood was universal (as in all the other flood myths) then there is no internal contradiction.
      You are simply left with having to believe that all the animals on Earth were collected and stored on a wooden boat....
      Hence why modern apologists try to convince themselves and others that the flood was local.

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    2. Anonymous: Now let us see whether there is any contradiction in Verses 21:76 and 37:76-77 of Quran.
      21:76 And Noah, when he cried of old, We heard his prayer and saved him and his household from the great affliction.
      37:76-77 And We saved him (Noah) and his household from the great distress, And made his seed the survivors.
      These verses do not contradict the verses 11:42-43
      Noah cried unto his son and he was standing aloof - O my son! Come ride with us, and be not with the disbelievers. He said: I shall betake me to some mountain that will save me from the water. Noah said: This day there is none that saveth from the commandment of Allah save him on whom He hath had mercy. And the wave came in between them, so he was among the drowned.

      The son referred to in the above verse is one son who was a disbeliever. He had other sons who were in the ark and and who were saved. Allah saved him (Noah) and his household (his sons) from the great distress, and made his seed the survivors.

      (Verse 37:76-77) ...................................and saved him and his household from the great affliction (Verse 21:76). This fact is clear from the admonition given by Noah to his sons who survived the global flood at the time of his death:-
      'Abdullaah Ibn 'Amr Ibn Al-'Aas narrated that the Prophet said: "When the death of the Messenger of Allaah Nooh approached, he admonished his sons: 'Indeed I give you far-reaching advice, commanding you to do two things, and warning you against two others: I beseech you to believe that there is no deity except Allaah, and that if the seven heavens and the seven earths were put on one side of a scale and the words 'There is no deity but Allaah' were put on the other, the latter would outweigh the former. I warn you against associating partners with Allaah in worship and against pride.'" [Al-Bukhaari]

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    3. Anonymous: Now let us see whether there is any contradiction in Verses 21:76 and 37:76-77 of Quran.
      21:76 And Noah, when he cried of old, We heard his prayer and saved him and his household from the great affliction.
      37:76-77 And We saved him (Noah) and his household from the great distress, And made his seed the survivors.
      These verses do not contradict the verses 11:42-43
      Noah cried unto his son and he was standing aloof - O my son! Come ride with us, and be not with the disbelievers. He said: I shall betake me to some mountain that will save me from the water. Noah said: This day there is none that saveth from the commandment of Allah save him on whom He hath had mercy. And the wave came in between them, so he was among the drowned.

      The son referred to in the above verse is one son who was a disbeliever. He had other sons who were in the ark and saved. Allah saved him (Noah) and his household (his sons) from the great distress, and made his seed the survivors (Verse 37:76-77) and saved him and his household from the great affliction (Verse 21:76).
      This is evidenced by the fact that Noah admonished his sons who survived the global flood, at the time of his death:-
      'Abdullaah Ibn 'Amr Ibn Al-'Aas narrated that the Prophet said: "When the death of the Messenger of Allaah Nooh approached, he admonished his sons: 'Indeed I give you far-reaching advice, commanding you to do two things, and warning you against two others: I beseech you to believe that there is no deity except Allaah, and that if the seven heavens and the seven earths were put on one side of a scale and the words 'There is no deity but Allaah' were put on the other, the latter would outweigh the former. I warn you against associating partners with Allaah in worship and against pride.'" [Al-Bukhaari]

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  16. So what I'm seeing here (from the Quran) is that Noah is ASKING God to wipe out all the unbelievers. But that doesn't necessarily mean that God will comply. Noah can't MAKE God do anything.

    And then the rest of what happens says that water covered the earth, not the necessarily the Earth as in the whole Earth, but perhaps just earth as in the ground (you see people didn't make a big distinction between the two because they did not know the limits of the earth yet, and so if there was water as far as the eye could see and no land, it didn't make a practical difference to them either way).

    So for us, now, it remains ambiguous (unclear). And this is done purposefully, SuphanAllah.

    "It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] precise - they are the foundation of the Book - and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them]. And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah . But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All [of it] is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded except those of understanding." (Quran 3:7)

    In other places in the Quran it says that different peoples and religions were made so that we can learn from each other. These kind of ambiguous, unclear verses spark a debate which forces people to ponder God and religion more closely. I think this must have been God's intention. Whether the flood happened or not and on what scale is irreverent and will never be conclusively proven beyond a doubt. Yet, the story continues to have a profound effect on people today (right here in this forum!)

    God Bless!

    " Unto every one of you We have appointed a (different) law and way of life. And if God had so willed, He could surely have made you all one single community: but (He willed it otherwise) in order to test you by means of what He has vouchsafed unto you. Vie, then, with one another in doing good works.Unto God you all must return; and then He will make you truly understand all that on which you were wont to differ." (Quran 5:48)


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  17. "It is illogical to assume that Prophet Muhummad (pbuh) had borrowed the story of the flood from the Bible and corrected the mistakes before mentioning it in the Qur’an."

    It is very logical assumption(suspicion). People have always been adding to stories they heard earlier when passing it down. In our own time, we have seen how movie makers have remade movies made decades earlier after plugging the loopholes that they see, to make it more suitable to audiences of that time.

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    1. movie makers plug loopholes that they are aware of and understand. they don't plug loop holes about things that will be known after a 1500 years

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  18. You know that it is not even possible to place from every kid 1 pair of animal do you know how many types of tigers there are how many type of dogs if the who globe animal have 1000's and millions of variations in animals alone cannot fit the boat it was a local flood even muslims have misconceptions about this

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  19. http://ishttp://islamqa.info/en/130293

    This is by the Scholars of Islam and it is incontrovertible. I guess Muslims believe Maurice Bucaille to be an authority over Arab Muslim Scholars of past and present!!!!

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  20. Also Muslims should take a note of Muhammad copying erroneous ideas from the bible that Noah (Nooh) lived for 950 years!

    [Genesis 7] Noah was SIX HUNDRED YEARS old when the flood of waters came upon the earth.
    [Genesis 9:29] So all the days of Noah were NINE HUNDRED AND FIFTY YEARS; and he died.

    [Qur'an 29:14] And indeed We sent Nuh to his people, and he stayed among them a THOUSAND YEARS less FIFTY YEARS; so the Deluge overtook them while they were wrongdoers.

    This is endorsed by the folks at Islam Q&A:
    http://islamqa.info/en/105695

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  21. Mohammedali Basheer of India please join CEMB forum at http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=16106.0 for further discuss the stories that we read in Quran..

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  22. 71 26-27 is noah asking god to not leave a single person on earth...not god...so you are being disingenuous in what you reported....oy vey

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  23. again you get caught in lie 'covered the face of the earth'....al tunuru does not translate to earth....but oven....again you het caught with your pants down mate

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  24. hello people, try to imagine that the whole earth is flooded......, it is just resembling pushing an apple down inside a pail of water. This does not appear right and logical....so the right scenario was the flood was localised... and the flood only drowned the disbelievers among the people of Noah, as people in China then, if there were there, were not a nation that the teaching of Noah had reached them..... so they were spared by the flood and the wrath of the Creator. Easy to understand that way, right guys?

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  25. for all the people who say " we just want people to think logically"
    islam is based on the idea that God is all powerful and can do anything he wills. If you don't accept this assumption then yes, the arc story and the flooding doesn't make sense. But if you assume that God is all powerful
    then the story is very logical. I seen that movie " the day the earth stood still" people are willing to accept the possibility of an alien that is not all powerful can destroy all earth and save all species. However, for God, it is impossible right

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  26. So what about 71:26-27 which plainly states that NO-ONE, NOT A SINGLE PERSON will be left alive on Earth?

    So, if i said, "I wish i rule the world", then I AM ruling the world?
    Ghee whiz.
    So, it's true preconceived notion can ruin someone's basic logic so severly

    - bet you won't post this.

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  27. Allah is a myth. Since leave Iscam and freeing my mind from its messed up clutches, I curse his ass everyday and nothing happens! How can you have a localized flood in Mesopatamia where the flood waters are higher than the mountains of Iraq and Turkey? Whats holding the water back in the South, East, and West? Muhammad plaigarized the Bible and the Bible plaigarized Gilgamesh.

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  28. Firstly your times are way out secondly the ark was the reason why we are all over the world. Other men followed by building similar vesels to chart the globe. So this points to localised yet I my self would not comment as the truth is with the All Mighty and he put the knowledge in an illiterate man (prt Mohamed pbah) through the angel Gabriel to right the glorious Quran. Your facts are based on common theory and in no way are part of the poetic literature format of scribing in those days.

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  29. so from 7:26 to 27 Noah asks god to not leave a single disbeliever on earth, where does it says god told noah that he won't leave a single human beings on earth? Its funny you pointed at this verse to prove your point without reading it properly. Quran does not state that the whole earth will taste the flood, and everything will be perished, it only tells us those who denied the message of noah were drowned and those who did was rescued, whilst the bible only says that apart from his family, everyone else was drowned. every special of all kind is talking about the local animals of all kind. You have been caught with your pants down as usual

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  30. Guys, please. God Himself left it ambiguous for a reason. It's not explicit either way. If archaeological and geological evidence supports one version over another, then we can safely believe that - but that's not the POINT. Does heaven or hell depend on whether you believe in a local or worldwide flood? No. Should you learn a lesson from the story? Yes. HAVE you learned that lesson if you're here squabbling over an ambiguous point? Obviously not.

    People who force a miracle into everything end up making us all look bad. There are plenty of ACTUALLY miraculous things in the Qur'an without this HAVING to be one!

    And you can freely take or leave alone things that commentators say when they said them with incomplete or outdated knowledge. In cases like this, they are just opinions, after all. We aren't obliged to believe Tabari's or anyone else's conclusions when they're contradicted by clear scientific findings.

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  31. Hi Rasheed,
    What is the lesson we are supposed to draw from a story in which a supposed "merciful" god wipes out either the whole of creation except for a single boat load or many thousands (depending on your interpretation..)
    The lesson I would draw is this: He is a genocidal lunatic whose insane jealousy leads Him to inflict unspeakable horrors on those who cannot possibly be to blame (ie the children of the idolaters/unbelievers).

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  32. Hello Spinoza!

    This is now going far afield of the topic of your original article, isn't it? Id est: whether the flood story in the Qur'an is describing a local or worldwide event. As I pointed out, this discussion bears no fruit because the text is ambiguous at best (although a conclusion CAN be reached), as it's not meant to be a history lesson, but a moral one. Now, I should have added the caveat that the lessons in the Qur'an are really intended for those who already believe that there is a God (I'm only assuming you're an atheist, please correct me if I'm wrong) AND that the Qur'an is that God's revelation. Quantum Mechanics classes aren't really intended for Art History majors, to strike a loose similitude.

    To proceed: there are two major lessons the believer should draw from even a cursory reading of the account of Prophet Noah peace be upon him. These lessons, though, can only be gleaned from taking the entire narrative into account, not just the climax (as you have done). Dwelling on that disastrous end only reveals the first, and I think most obvious; and that is the great importance of showing respect for and believing in God's messengers (the consequences of failing to do so in this case are obvious). As a non-believer, this lesson will hold no value for you, and understandably so.

    If you read the entire account, however, the other lesson will make itself very apparent: that is the example of Noah's (peace be upon him) extraordinary level of perseverance. The length of his preaching was 950 years. He was tenacious and relentless in the pursuit of his goal of guiding his people away from idol worship and back to worship of the One True God (a concept with which you are free to disagree) - even under threat of violence: “They said: If thou cease not, O Noah, thou wilt surely be among those stoned” (Qur’an, 26:116). His response, narrated in another chapter, exhibits his fortitude as well as his persistence: “Then have at me, give me no respite” (Qur’an, 10:71). The idea here, in short, is to remember Noah (peace be upon him) when you feel yourself losing patience or wanting to give up on a task - look at how much time and effort he gave for his cause; shouldn't you strive to do similarly?

    To conclude: I'm of the opinion that Noah's (peace be upon him) flood was only a local phenomenon, because the Islamic paradigm is that before the advent of Muhammad (peace be upon him), messengers and prophets were sent exclusively to their own nations and people (which would include Noah peace be upon him). Furthermore, the geological record doesn't support the theory of a worldwide flood, and the language used in the Qur'an is compatible with it being just a local one. On top of that, the Qur'an tells us that Noah's (peace be upon him) plea to God was to wipe out all of the DISBELIEVERS in the land. In Islam, children can't be considered believers or disbelievers (thus being innocent), because being put into either category requires making an informed decision. So we're left with one of two options: either the children of the polytheists were spared their parents' fate in their worldly lives (i.e. by not being killed), or they were drowned as well, but were saved from their parents' fate in the afterlife (i.e. not having Hell as their final abode). This is another thing I don't expect you, as a disbeliever, to take hold of and agree with, but surely you possess the ability to understand the rationale.

    If you've taken from all of this that God is a "genocidal lunatic [who possesses] insane jealousy..." then as I said, you've missed the point and misinterpreted things. This may be due to a difference in the way you and I define justice (which is what's being preserved by removing such a large group of idolaters from the world), perhaps because of your lack of a belief in an afterlife.

    I hope I've made myself clear without jumping around too much (I'm doing this and uni work at the same time)!

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  33. Hi Rasheed,
    Thanks for your lengthy comment.
    I called God "genocidal" because He himself refers repeatedly (to the point of obsession) to all the nations He has wiped off the face of the earth. He also asks us to learn from these peoples' terrible fate. The lesson believers presumably draw is that their God will have no qualms about destroying their cities, homes and families if they fail to believe in Him or take His messengers' words seriously. (As a side point, do those who follow the Abrahamic faiths never wonder why God's apparent regular dispatching of metaphorical thunder bolts to destroy errant nations seems to have dried up since reliable recorded history, ironically just as nations have become more and more godless and presumably in need of a bit of heavy-handed chastisement)

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    1. The fate of Ad and then Thamud is a case in point.
      In 53.50/51 God stresses that he spared no-one when he wiped these nations off the face of the earth.
      What a lovely, merciful deity it is you worship

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    2. Well, when you don't accept the premises that I base my beliefs on, then I can hardly expect you to share my conclusions.

      Your digression from the original topic - whether the Qur'an's account of Noah's (peace be upon him) flood was local or worldwide - is irrelevant to it.

      I think I've reasonably demonstrated that yes, the Qur'anic description is more believable than the Biblical one. This is based on the text's ability to be reconciled with scientific findings, regardless of what earlier commentators presented (which were drawn from the Biblical [unscientific] accounts anyway). Now, does this have anything to do with your or my opinions on the nature of the Creator, which you may or may not believe to even be real? In a word: no. Is the Qur'an more believable than the Bible? In a word: yes.

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    3. If someone tells u a man jumped from a building and flew for 5 seconds
      And another tells you a man flew for 10 seconds. I guarantee u would say although its a lie "5 seconds" is more believable. Isnt it.

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  34. It should be either true or false.More or less believable both are unbelievable.

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  35. I think its all straight forward. The ones who wish to disbelieve the Quraan produce incorrect translations and interpretations. The flood was definitely local as stated in the Quraan. http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/historical_06.html .

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    1. Then why build the ark for a local flood.
      If nepal is gonna be flooded...would u build an ark or move out of nepal.?
      The god has gotta to have immense intelligence..smartest...cleverest...and the arks the best he could come up with for a local flood.
      Is he not playing with eternal lives of billions of people by providing doubtful n shoddy information.
      He just wants us to have blind faith...isnt it?

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  36. In addition, the Quraan clearly states that we should ponder, research, travel and investigate things that are of benefit. The verse mentioned by a commenter above 5:102 is not about questioning the Quraan but rather advising people not to waste their time asking about things that have no benefit or asking in order to mock and humiliate, or to argue only for the sake of endless argument, e.g. asking where are my dead parents living or other questions which have no real benefit.

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  37. I refuse to even read the a above comments. ONLY GOD (ALLAH) knows the history of mankind. We are told in the Qur'an in the 18th chapter known in English as "The Cave": regarding the argument over how many boys there were sleeping in the cave and how many years they slept. "Say: "Allah knows best how long they stayed, with Him is (the knowledge of) the secrets of the heavens and the earth...."
    Stop arguing over something you have no knowledge about. The knowledge is with Allah only. Just do righteous deeds. Do the right thing. If you are a believer Allah will protect you from Shaytan (satan) who helps you forget the difference between right and wrong. Trust Him and don't waste your time arguing on these sites when there are righteous things you could be doing instead! Muslim

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  38. And there we have in a nutshell why humanity still believes in sky fairies...

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  39. Now that we have established from above comments that no one accepts global flood...everyone defending quran says the flood was local....so answer this....if the flood was local..what was the need to go thru the horrifying process of building the ark. Noahs followers and the animals could easily have moved out of the area .
    Ark only signifies that it was a global flood...its all blind faith.. the fear of hell put into the minds of christians and muslims that makes them oversee the facts and abandon common sense. And come up with alternative meanings of words and theories.
    Mere speaking about the credibility of muhammads prophethood is apostasy.
    Noahs story is just one error in the quran... there are many more.

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  40. Atheists make make a lame excuse that flood never happened based on Christian claim that one pair of all species were on the Ark which they say is impossible. I searched Islamic sacred texts and I found this: According to Islamic sacred texts, there were eight animals on the Ark mentioned in Quran 7:143-144 which include goats, sheep, cows and camels. و عنه: عن محمد بن أبي عبد الله، عن محمد بن الحسين، عن محمد بن سنان، عن إسماعيل الجعفي و عبد الكريم بن عمرو، و عبد الحميد بن أبي الديلم، عن أبي عبد الله (عليه السلام) قال: " حمل نوح (عليه السلام) في السفينة الأزواج الثمانية التي قال الله عز و جل:
    { ثَمَٰنِيَةَ أَزْوَٰجٍ مِّنَ ٱلضَّأْنِ ٱثْنَيْنِ وَمِنَ ٱلْمَعْزِ ٱثْنَيْنِ..... وَمِنَ ٱلإِبْلِ ٱثْنَيْنِ وَمِنَ ٱلْبَقَرِ ٱثْنَيْنِ }
    [الأنعام: 143-144] فكان من الضأن اثنين: زوج داجنة تربيها الناس، و الزوج الآخر الضأن التي تكون في الجبال الوحشية، أحل لهم صيدها و من المعز اثنين: زوج داجنة يربيها الناس، و الزوج الآخر الظباء الوحشية التي تكون في المفاوز و من الإبل اثنين: البخاتي، و العراب و من البقر اثنين: زوج داجنة يربيها الناس ، و الزوج الآخر البقر الوحشية و كل طير طيب: وحشي أو إنسي، ثم غرقت الأرض " http://altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=110&tSoraNo=11&tAyahNo=40&tDisplay=yes&Page=5&Size=1&LanguageId=1

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