tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3229990984320313018.post8879658152513057854..comments2023-11-23T18:05:15.094+00:00Comments on Rational Islam? - Letters to a Muslim: Is The Qur’an a Literary Miracle?Spinozahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06059865902367641577noreply@blogger.comBlogger27125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3229990984320313018.post-22149469425030705422017-11-23T00:51:59.054+00:002017-11-23T00:51:59.054+00:00Arabic has many unique aspects in its language. Fi...Arabic has many unique aspects in its language. Firstly the manner by which it identifies the verb from the noun, the ability to identify the subject from the predicate in a nominal sentence, the capacity to expand the vocabulary from identification of its root words, the numerous almost synonyms which contains subtle differences, the conveyance of meaning through grammatical structures etc. <br /><br />Just to give one example in English a sentence with a verb would require one to stick to a particular order. Ie subject verb object. Hence there's only one valid form of sentence in this case otherwise one changes who the subject and the object is or simply create a grammatically incorrect sentence, hit john Simon for example. <br /><br />In Arabic there's no ordering of the subject verb or object so in a three word sentence like john hit Simon it can be presented in 6 different sentences. <br /><br />Now as I mentioned meaning is not simply conveyed in words alone in Arabic but also syntax of the sentence. So saying "hit john Simon" where the verb is brought first and then the subject and then object would have a different meaning than saying john hit Simon, even though the subject verb object doesn't change. Ie overall idea that john hit Simon still remains but the meaning with the change in order has an impact. In some cases this will affect emphasis as an example. <br /><br />Why do I spend time explaining this? <br /><br />Because in ilm ul balaagha which means the science of rhetoric one of the sentence ordering will be better suited to the context and audience in conveying a broader meaning than in another order. <br /><br />What this means is that you have in one example a quite easy testable way to identify whether the verses of the Quran have achieved the highest meaning conveyed within the sentence. And this is for verbal sentences while looking at just one very small aspect of the language which is the ordering of the subject object and verb within a sentence. <br /><br />Now when we do this with the Quran we find every single verbal sentence (and remember many verses aren't just made up of three words and so the permeatations of the sentence structure can greatly increased) has the most perfect arrangement of words. Meaning that if we were to change the word order we'd reduce the meaning conveyed within the verse of the Quran. <br /><br />Now I could go further and talk about other aspects within the Arabic language like predication which is a subset in ilm ul maani which itself is part of the larger topic of ilm ul balaagha. Or I could look at the almost synonyms in Arabic and see whether replacement of a word or even a particle would highten maintain or lower its meaning. Using this criteria we find any change in wording even in a single verse reduces the meaning it doesn't even maintain it. <br /><br />Eg if I replaced the word rayb which means doubt with shakk or dhann which also mean doubt in the second verse of surah baqarah you'd have reduced the meaning of the verse. As la rayb ie no doubt means no doubt to the point the heart achieves absolute rest with contentment. Neither saying la shakk or la dhann would convey this particular meaning even though all three words contain the idea of "no doubt". In fact the use of la rayb fits perfectly not only in context of its meaning but also the flowability and internal rhythm of the verse. Dhalikal kitabu la rayba fee hudalil mutaqeen. Imagine trying to recite the word rayb with dhann or shakk in the verse and still maintaining its flow and ease of recitation, you couldn't. This latter aspect is related to the unique genre of the Quran and in this sense it doesn't fit within simple saj form as it's not a rhyming prose as the words fit together to create smoothness in listening and recitation. <br /><br />So no this isn't a vague subjective discussion but has rules and can easily be tested. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00545461805833823941noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3229990984320313018.post-74727912152473530912015-04-08T20:06:41.760+01:002015-04-08T20:06:41.760+01:00Haha, its been three years but don't give up A...Haha, its been three years but don't give up Anon - 'tis on its way (that's sarcastic, to add to your collection).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3229990984320313018.post-44037523440244044562015-01-21T18:58:11.445+00:002015-01-21T18:58:11.445+00:00LoL you are trying to belittle a translation from ...LoL you are trying to belittle a translation from a language that has no resemblance to another neither in its form or function into another (English). How can you change something to a different thing and critique the former based on the later ??Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00939734263362816233noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3229990984320313018.post-19581228143261144012014-11-19T04:35:00.224+00:002014-11-19T04:35:00.224+00:00People who actually take this blog seriously need ...People who actually take this blog seriously need to check their own credentials and knowledge, this is literally the most embarrassing response to the linguistic challenge of the Qur'an that I have ever read, why would anyone waste their time even engaging with such delusions. The fools that comment, believing in the drivel presented in this post are clueless and nonsensical, how could one even comprehend the great capacity of idiocy that these mules swim around in, lost amongst their arrogance, rooted within their ignorance and bewitched by their backward presuppositions, bias and blinded. Sincerity is never there, heedlessness to ones thoughtfulness and patience is never bared, for will they ever learn? Only if they cared.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3229990984320313018.post-7320746839298581572014-02-14T12:20:28.814+00:002014-02-14T12:20:28.814+00:00As for the grammatical issue you have pointed out,...As for the grammatical issue you have pointed out, I have heard that it is a form of praise, referring to God as "we". Others have said it is when God refers to himself and those with him [The angels], which I think is most likelyQuran Online Learninghttp://livequranlearn.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3229990984320313018.post-1004987651046353472014-01-04T02:30:02.812+00:002014-01-04T02:30:02.812+00:00If you read the paper by Farid Esack, a Muslim sch...If you read the paper by Farid Esack, a Muslim scholar, the "Qur'anic Hermeneutics: Problems and Prospecs" you would realize the author considers the doctrine of Ijaz (inimitability of the Qur'an) to be a problem in modern quranic hermeneutics. Later on he mentions "The various theological formulations regarding it linguistic aesthetic character, we shall see, are further testimony of the trend in 'ulum al Qur'an to move from flexibility to rigidity or linguistic chauvinism. An example in this instance is the rejection of linguistic pluralism, i.e. the principle that no language in entirely independent in its development from that of another". pg.127. Later on, he elaborates "The notion of any language or discourse being absolutely free from expressions or words used in another language in alien to the basic linguistic principle". pg. 128 ABCshakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15851873973357965317noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3229990984320313018.post-44880098866573588182014-01-04T01:24:38.965+00:002014-01-04T01:24:38.965+00:00@Anonymous, That quote by Phillp K. Hitti is proba...@Anonymous, That quote by Phillp K. Hitti is probably not his own opinion but a retelling of the orthodox position on the Quran. He does this quite often in works. Furthermore, in the second paperback edition (1970) of "The Arabs: A Short history" he mentions "-the classical language modeled by the Koran is followed everywhere. At the time of the Muhammad there was no work of the first order in Arabic prose. The Koran was therefore the earliest, and has been since remained the model prose work. Its language is rhythmical and rhetorical, but not poetical. Its rhymed prosed has set the standard which almost every conservative Arabic writer of today consciously strives to imitate".<br />It other words the Qur'an is held as the standard for Arabic literature (for conservative religious writers), which would make it de-facto inimitable. Hardly a miracle but an outcome of historical eventsABCshakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15851873973357965317noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3229990984320313018.post-88728596444450846992013-12-01T04:09:35.739+00:002013-12-01T04:09:35.739+00:00I would like to respond to some of your points &qu...I would like to respond to some of your points "anonymous".<br /><br />I don't have the patience to write out such detailed responses so I will try hit the core issue. For a start we can get into this debate with various sources about weather the people at Mohammed's time knew the Quran was a miracle or not but the bottom line is, when Mohammed started preaching the vast majority of people just ignored or ridiculed him as you would expect if someone claimed to be speaking Gods words. This whole topic of the people who studied the Quran talk of amazing rhetoric, rhetoric itself is completely subjective and has no place in this discussion, what one person finds persuasive another person wont. yes you are correct it often was spontaneous and the style of the Quran itself makes that easier, switching from one topic to the next randomly not following any grammatical reason or rhyme, like the switching of the subject pronouns from he to we etc., the Quran can just use anything and it will be held up as miraculous rhetorical device. There is no way to objectively prove any miraculous quality about a piece of literature, just for the sake of clarification the style of Quran does make it easier than other books to remember yet it is still an impressive feat to memorise all of it, makes no difference to it's claim of being a miracle.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3229990984320313018.post-70788271838074861772013-11-13T17:04:10.732+00:002013-11-13T17:04:10.732+00:00On Aug. 1. 2013 Anonymous wrote: "Finally, th...On Aug. 1. 2013 Anonymous wrote: "Finally, the book was written over a millennium ago, but has mention to things that have been discovered 12-13 centuries after it was written, one of the many reasons people like myself and others convert."<br /><br />You have been not been paying too much attention to this blog. Here's a link you should consult. http://captaindisguise.blogspot.ae/2013/09/muslims-against-science-in-quran-claims.htmlAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3229990984320313018.post-26191415259235102252013-11-13T13:09:10.107+00:002013-11-13T13:09:10.107+00:00We are still waiting on capt never to return n Spi...We are still waiting on capt never to return n Spinoza lost on his travels.....Lmao!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3229990984320313018.post-1686880971705820252013-09-27T06:54:36.260+01:002013-09-27T06:54:36.260+01:00You can't defeat it.You can't defeat it. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3229990984320313018.post-85308771376002267182013-09-07T02:37:54.102+01:002013-09-07T02:37:54.102+01:00Haha I'm still waiting for Spinoza & capta...Haha I'm still waiting for Spinoza & captain to bring their arguments and responses to anon.....have you constructed your arguments yet?destroyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04514169682799119266noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3229990984320313018.post-71070307721909764272013-08-01T20:58:54.603+01:002013-08-01T20:58:54.603+01:00I am Swedish, with a little knowledge of Arabic.
I...I am Swedish, with a little knowledge of Arabic.<br />I have recently converted to Islam, being an Atheist before.<br />I like this article, it was well written, though it doesn't raise doubt when you have already decided to become a Muslim.<br /><br />As for the grammatical issue you have pointed out, I have heard that it is a form of praise, referring to God as "we". Others have said it is when God refers to himself and those with him [The angels], which I think is most likely.<br /><br />Also, the prophet Muhammad was illiterate, I find it hard to believe he could have come up with over 600 pages of beauty without the ability to read nor write. He must have been some genius to come up with this stuff in a cave, memorize it then speak it aloud to those who could write, no?<br /><br />Finally, the book was written over a millennium ago, but has mention to things that have been discovered 12-13 centuries after it was written, one of the many reasons people like myself and others convert. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3229990984320313018.post-71247292420098394072013-02-13T09:04:37.335+00:002013-02-13T09:04:37.335+00:00Look forward to it, Captain!Look forward to it, Captain!Spinozahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06059865902367641577noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3229990984320313018.post-60640118171033656772013-02-13T05:04:55.135+00:002013-02-13T05:04:55.135+00:00I don't know how I missed this post. Great one...I don't know how I missed this post. Great one as usual.<br /><br />On a related note, I have been studying the works of Ludwig Wittgenstein recently. He did a lot of work on the philosophy of language. His teachings I think, can take the apologetics around Qur'an's literary qualities straight to hell.<br /><br />I will try to prepare an argument about this!CaptainDisguisehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00426652177631313145noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3229990984320313018.post-28694955714553246432012-12-29T10:11:53.526+00:002012-12-29T10:11:53.526+00:00With regards to memorization of the quran, you ass...With regards to memorization of the quran, you assert "The supposedly unique ease with which people can memorise the Qur'an is not so miraculous when one learns that most pre-Islamic Arabic literature was memorised with ease because of the nature of poetry or rhymed prose or saj'. They were designed to be easy to remember."<br /><br />Those who have accomplished the extraordinary feat of memorizing all of the 6246 verses are not a handful of devotees but there are hundreds of thousands of them. Most, just like most Muslims in the world today, do not speak Arabic. Yet they have meticulously learnt to pronounce each and every word of the Quran correctly. The phenomenon is not a result of some religious resurgence that would pass. From the very first day that the Quran was revealed, it was memorized. And the number of those who have memorized it has been increasing ever since. Memorization of Quran has been going on all through the centuries,all over the globe wherever Muslims are.There are other religions that claim to possess the Word of God. There are none that can show a book that has commanded anything remotely comparable to this level of devotion. Quran is the most read and the only completely memorized book in the whole world. It is also the most studied book in the world. It has stimulated development of entire disciplines of knowledge throught history dealing with its reading, writing, and interpretation. Yet fourteen centuries later, its language is as alive as it was when it was revealed. And there is no other example when the very first book in a language became any masterpiece let alone the eternal masterpiece that Quran is. <br /><br />I will try to respond to your other contentions in another post Inshallah(God willing). I would apprecitae if you can approve my other comment. And by the way I am not anon, whom ever that is.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3229990984320313018.post-5900818110213478542012-12-27T23:32:31.390+00:002012-12-27T23:32:31.390+00:00You then Go on to assert"As a list it's s...You then Go on to assert"As a list it's simply not that impressive, Hamza. Especially when we compare it to a writer like Shakespeare (who didn't spend 23 years on one book but wrote a play while rehearsing another and performing yet another and managed to write 884,000 words of majestic poetry and prose. By comparison the Qur'an is one tenth the length (only approximately 78,000 words). I'm no Shakespeare scholar but I suspect we'd find his oeuvre included all of the above techniques and PLENTY more besides. Does that then make Shakespeare's work divine (in the true sense...)?" You then conclude your point by saying"The apparent unique breadth of rhetorical or literary devices is not overly-impressive given the length of the Qur'an and the amount of time its author had to consider its content and style. Now what you fail to realize is that yes the Quran was revealed in a 23 year period. The prophet p.b.u.h did not have a lot of time to consider the content and style. And many of its verses were revealed at SPECIFIC times and places. The Qur’an is a known literary masterpiece yet its verse were at many times revealed for specific circumstances and events that occurred. However, without revision or deletion they are literary masterpieces. All literary masterpieces have undergone revision and deletion to ensure literary perfection, however the Qur’an was revealed instantaneously. What is very unique is that the Quran was revealed into chapters, and these chapters are literary coherent. If thats the case then how are they coherent if they were revealed over 23 year period? It only indicates the author knew the future. Imagine writing your conclusion then going back to the introduction then adding to the main part. Imagine if you did that for you an essay, you wouldn't have a coherent essay. The literary devices employed in the Qur’an add to this amazing feet of the Quran. As far as your comparison with shakespear. William Shakespeare, who was an English poet and playwright, widely regarded as the greatest writer in the English language, is often used as an example of unique literature.<br />However there are some problems with the above argument. It does not take into account the nature of the Qur’an’s uniqueness and it doesn’t understand the uniqueness of literary geniuses such as Shakespeare. Although Shakespeare composed poetry and prose that received an unparalleled aesthetic reception, the literary form he expressed his works in was not unique. In many instances Shakespeare used the common Iambic Pentameter (The Iambic pentameter is a meter in poetry. It refers to a line consisting of five iambic feet. The word “pentameter” simply means that there are five feet in the line.) However in the case of the Qur’an, its language is in an entirely unknown and unmatched literary form. The structural features of the Qur’anic discourse render it unique and not the subjective appreciation of its literary and linguistic makeup.The Qur’an reaches, indeed defines, the peak of eloquence in the Arabic language The Qur’an stakes its claim to divine origin on the matter of its language, by issuing a challenge<br />to rival even its shortest chapter. This has rested at the core of many historical studies of the Qur’an, as many have attempted to answer the central question of authorship.How could a man, from being illiterate, become the most important author, in terms of literary merits, in the whole of Arabic literature?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3229990984320313018.post-72056768880890545462012-12-27T23:29:34.037+00:002012-12-27T23:29:34.037+00:00You then ask the question "Are the literary d...You then ask the question "Are the literary devices used in the Qur'an an argument for its divine origin?" Then you assert "Once the more technical terms are explained in simple language - like all jargon designed to intimidate, impress and exclude - they become less impressive. In fact, I would say that if I were to write a "revelation" in poetic language the length of the Qur'an over the course of twenty-three years, I'd be hard pressed NOT to include all of the above. As a list it's simply not that impressive" Now this is quite surprising becuase the people who have studied the literary devices used in the Qur'an disagree. Now I would refer you to what the experts have to say about the matter becuase it is clear you are quite inept to fully appreciate this."The Qur’an is a ‘sea of rhetoric’. The Qur’an exhibits an unparalleled frequency of rhetorical features, surpassing any other Arabic text, classical or modern."."The use of rhetoric in the Quran stands out from any type of discourse.-F. Esack. 1993. Qur’anic Hermeneutics: Problems and Prospects. In the Muslim Wolrd. Vol 83, No.2; p 118-141.- The literary devices employed in the Qur’an are not ornamental elements such that they can be dispensed with, but rather they are part and parcel of its meaning and linguistic make up. Without them the Qur’an’s meaning and literary excellence is lost. The Quran, like all other great literary masterpieces, stands out because of its use of language to convey meaning. <br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3229990984320313018.post-68488055291723455312012-12-27T16:00:03.776+00:002012-12-27T16:00:03.776+00:00Thank you anon. I will address your points when I ...Thank you anon. I will address your points when I return from my travelsSpinozahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06059865902367641577noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3229990984320313018.post-9263192876459095512012-12-27T08:08:42.328+00:002012-12-27T08:08:42.328+00:00In the name of Allah the most merciful.
I would l...In the name of Allah the most merciful.<br /><br />I would like to point out the manner in which your contentions fall short. To begin with You asked the question Were Muhammad's contemporaries all impressed by the miraculous nature of the Qur'an? You assert"One would assume that, were a work of literature created by God, it would be perfect and that all those who heard it would be transfixed. It would, we might also assume, not be greeted by derision and dismissed as mere plagiarism by other poets of the time. Nonetheless, this is what apparently happened when Muhammad first started to reveal God's words to humanity". You then quote a passage from the Quran.83:13 ... "[W]hen Our revelations are recited to him, he says, "Ancient fables!" 14 No indeed! Their hearts are encrusted with what they have done. 15 No indeed! On that day they will be screened off from their Lord, 16 they will burn in Hell, 17 and they will be told, "This is what you call a lie." What you fail to realize is that knowledge and proof is one thing but submission is another. You may have evidence and knowledge of somethings but that does not mean you will submit. And a clear example is given with the prophets and messengers before, in which they preformed many miracles and yet you still had people who were disblievers. And what the verse is pointing to is one of their baseless claims due to their own subjective self delusion which was contrary to the evidence i.e the Quran being inimitable. Arbuthnot, who was a noted British orientlist, and translator disagress with you on your assertion. He is a non muslim scholar by the way, he explains in his book-The Construction of the Bible and the Koran the effect of the Qur’anic style.- “It is confessedly the standard of the Arabic tongue… The style of the Koran is beautiful and fluent… and in many places, especially where the majesty and attributes of God are described, sublime and magnificent… He succeeded so well, and so strangely captivated the minds of his audience".<br /><br />You then assert in your conslusion to this first point. "The Qur'an was criticised by other poets of the time. Muhammad had these poets assassinated. This does not suggest to me that the Qur'an or its mouthpiece were divinely inspired."<br />The only example you were able to give was Al-Nadr bin al-Harith. Now what you conviently ommited was that Al Nadir bin al Harith in the Battle of Badr, Nadr joined the the opposing Quraish army. After the battle, out of the 72 captives, only 2 were executed, one of them being Nadr b. al-Harith.The account can be found at -The Life of Muhammad PBUH by Abdul Hameed Siddiqui, p.185-186, Islamic Publications LTD-.And in the source it says"The two men, were executed because of their unrelenting hostility towards the Muslims."However, whats interesting, is that out of all the prisoners of war, only 2 were executed. Moreover, these prisoners were treated with the utmost kindness. So much so that history records many of their conversions to Islam. Examples of the kindness include the fact that the Muslims gave them the better thing to eat, while they contented themselves with dates. Furthermore history tells us that the best poet at that time was Walid Ibn Magirah. And he says about the Quran"By God! this could not have come from a human being." Many others I can name such as Tufail etc. I would like to conclude with the words of Professor Philip k. Hitti, a notable non muslims academic and scholar:"The style of the Koran is Gods’ style. It is different, incomparable and inimitable. This is basically<br />what constitutes the ‘miraculous character’ (i’jaz) of the Koran."-Philip K. Hitti. 1960. “History of the Arabs”, seventh edition. Macmilllan & Co Ltd.-<br /><br />I will try to address some of your other inane assertions with another post.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3229990984320313018.post-37819094539834228802012-08-07T09:43:56.866+01:002012-08-07T09:43:56.866+01:00Thanks Anon - and for readers who don't speak ...Thanks Anon - and for readers who don't speak Indonesian here's a summary:<br />"Repent! The Qur'an guides us for a good life...etc."<br />Would you like to add anything to the debate?Spinozahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06059865902367641577noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3229990984320313018.post-1101384206096444962012-08-07T00:20:18.379+01:002012-08-07T00:20:18.379+01:00semoga Allah memberikan hidayah pada Bapak untuk m...semoga Allah memberikan hidayah pada Bapak untuk membukan mata hati bapak yang paling dasar ...jika Bapak membaca Quran dg hati yang paling dalam dan kebenaran bapak akan merasakan keindahan Quran yang sebenarnya ...bertobatlah pak ...hidup kita tidak lama di sini ...tapi kehidupan kita akan abadi di alam kubur ..dengan membawa kebaikan yang bapak tanam di dunia ini ...Quran salah satu jalan mencari kebaikan hati ...carilah hidayah dan kebenaran quran dg hati yang bersih semoga bapak mendapatkan nilai ituAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3229990984320313018.post-76331341339707333782012-07-17T09:06:20.811+01:002012-07-17T09:06:20.811+01:00Unbelievable - so Hamza Tzortzis talks pretentious...Unbelievable - so Hamza Tzortzis talks pretentious, pompous bollocks about a subject he knows very little and the ummah lap it up. <br />Interesting post btw.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3229990984320313018.post-52933159633314579312012-07-16T21:02:42.833+01:002012-07-16T21:02:42.833+01:00Since only about 15% of Muslims are from Arabia an...Since only about 15% of Muslims are from Arabia and even their various dialects differ from classical Arabic I'd have to conclude that most Muslims don't have a clue about the Qur'an and hence Islam. Therefore they must be blindly following the Mullahs.<br />As a former Muslim I did not know Arabic but still believed.<br /> - AzimAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3229990984320313018.post-14368552110556232862012-07-16T20:14:21.400+01:002012-07-16T20:14:21.400+01:00I don't know if you're a Hamza Tzortzis fa...I don't know if you're a Hamza Tzortzis fan, but just in case, you might like to know that a few months ago Hamza Tzortzis described his own Arabic skills on facebook in this way:<br /><br />"my very little knowledge of the arabic langauge"[sic]<br /><br />He said a similar thing on the Magic Sandwich Show last year. This is a man who has built a following by writing and talking extensively about the "linguistic miracle"!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com